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> Secondary fan not coming on.../Overheating
Stephen
post May 29 2008, 02:18 PM
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I had my AC on , but the secondary fan isn't come on & I hit probably 240-250 today, on a relatively short drive, but at 60 mph.

The upper hose was HOT, so I'm sure the thermostat is opening, so the single fan just isn't cooling fast enough.

I know the secondary fan is based on temp, AND should come on regardless of temp if the AC is on. What else controls the secondary fan on/off?


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Stephen
post May 29 2008, 02:25 PM
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Can running the AC be the cause of overheating? I know that doesn't address the inoperable fan, butif ot running AC keeps it from overheating, I'll do that for now.


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Randy
post May 29 2008, 02:53 PM
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damm, you were doing 60mph and it was still over heating??? My vert likes to get up to 230-240 in the city and stop and go bumper to bumper traffic. but once i hit 50+ non stop she drops right down to 190 and stays there as long as i'm on the highway. I was replacing and checking all the fuses at Lou's one day, forgot to put the fan fuse back in. drove across town and on the highways like that. it stayed at 190 solid on the highway 60-70mph. but once it got to a stop light.. that was a diffrent story LOL. I figured out real fast i forgot to put the fan fuse back in while i was sitting in Jack-N-Box drive throu. You could allways put a manual swtich in it and manualy turn them on then drive it and see if it over heats then. Just seems odd it would still over heat at that speed even with out the fan, i drove mine around for over an hour before getting off the highway and realising i had no fans. and it dint get hot once on the highway. unless it is because maby you get less air flow throu that Flat Bird nose you have.

-Randy-


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--1991 Camaro RS Convertible-- (LO3 - V8 - TBI) 5.0 Liter - Borg-Warner T5 Manual - Performance Chip--
--Current Project- Lighter Fluid and a Match... yep that will fix it!--



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-1982 Camaro (LQ9 - L4 - TBI) - 2.4 Liter -- 4 speed Manual -- Sold

-1983 Recaro Trans Am T-Top (LG4 - V8 - 4bbl) 5.0 Liter -- (MM4) 4 speed Manual -- Sold
Swaped in 383 Stroker with Holly 4bbl. T5 Borg-Warner Trans.

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Stephen
post May 29 2008, 03:06 PM
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OK....Got it down to 170-ish, then took another test drive, this time no AC.

Stll at 60, I hit 220. So, the AC was a contributing factor, but.....

And all this just started Tuesday, & I hafta make drive south of Austin (towards Bastrop)on Saturday! Nice timing!

The air dam is under the radiator, so that's in place...Radiator is full. Well, I refilled it at Lou's Tuesday. So, unless a head gasket blew last weekend, and everything feels ggood bt the water level........

When it cools back down, I'll pull the radiator cap & check the water level. It should be fie after only 3 days.


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Eddy
post May 29 2008, 05:46 PM
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Isn't there a relay or some kind of temp sensor that kicks the second fan on?


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Stephen
post May 29 2008, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE(Eddy @ May 29 2008, 05:46 PM) *
Isn't there a relay or some kind of temp sensor that kicks the second fan on?


Yeah, and that is my biggest suspect, but I dunno which relay it is.....

Odd though. I kept adding water & antifreeze today, waiting, adding more, waiting....Either I didn't add enough at Lou's, or my engine is thirsty.

Exhaust has ZERO white smoke & the exhaust tips are DRY. ZERO moisture. I see no collapsed hose top or bottom.

Radiator cap back on, hood closed, idling for 10 min +. she leveled out at 220.

Hopefully I was jut LOW on water, even though I never see water puddling under the car anywhere. Head gasket would be my worst nightmare!

If the engine is drinking the water (head gasket), there is zero visible moisture at the tip.


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alljdmkevin
post May 29 2008, 06:21 PM
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Have you ever replaced the radiator on your car? had a miata that used to do the same thing, i thought it was the fan but when i put it to a switch it still did it, it was a 91 with an oem rad. i dont know if there is a way to flow test the rad, but it could just be all gunky and not properly cooling,
after i replaced the rad in the miata it stoped having any temp issues, good luck hopfuly its something easy other then a head gasket.

-kevin


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Eddy
post May 29 2008, 07:33 PM
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QUOTE(alljdmkevin @ May 29 2008, 07:21 PM) *
Have you ever replaced the radiator on your car? had a miata that used to do the same thing, i thought it was the fan but when i put it to a switch it still did it, it was a 91 with an oem rad. i dont know if there is a way to flow test the rad, but it could just be all gunky and not properly cooling,
after i replaced the rad in the miata it stoped having any temp issues, good luck hopfuly its something easy other then a head gasket.

-kevin


Mine was loosing water a couple of months ago. It was the radiator. I just happened to actually see it bust and start pouring while I was walking away from the car. I stopped by Advance and got a new radiator ($100) and decided to spring for a new water pump ($25). Then it was the 10 mile drive back home that was the fun part.


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Stephen
post May 29 2008, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE(alljdmkevin @ May 29 2008, 06:21 PM) *
Have you ever replaced the radiator on your car? had a miata that used to do the same thing, i thought it was the fan but when i put it to a switch it still did it, it was a 91 with an oem rad. i dont know if there is a way to flow test the rad, but it could just be all gunky and not properly cooling,
after i replaced the rad in the miata it stoped having any temp issues, good luck hopfuly its something easy other then a head gasket.

-kevin


I've only had the car about 2 years (3?) so I have no clue if it is a19 year old radiator, or 4 yrs old, or if it has ever been cleaned out. Worst case? I've ggot anotherradiator I could just drop in. Maybe I should get THAT ONE hot tanked/cleaned & just swap them?


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Eddy
post May 29 2008, 08:14 PM
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That's a good idea....but first, we gotta figure out why the second fan isn't coming on. I've been looking around on TGO and I believe there are 3 sensors for the cooling system. I don't know how many relays there are for the dual fan setup since I've got the single fan. I'd bet one of your relays is bad or you've got a blown fuse.


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BigBadLou
post May 29 2008, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE(Cranford @ May 29 2008, 03:18 PM) *
I had my AC on , but the secondary fan isn't come on & I hit probably 240-250 today, on a relatively short drive, but at 60 mph.

The upper hose was HOT, so I'm sure the thermostat is opening, so the single fan just isn't cooling fast enough.

I know the secondary fan is based on temp, AND should come on regardless of temp if the AC is on. What else controls the secondary fan on/off?

Both fans are controlled by a relay (one per fan). Each relay should be (it's hard to tell in your case, you have a strange year) actuated by a green/white wire.
I'd first check the relays, then continue downstream.
Locate the relays (some might be on the firewall, some on the fenders). They both will have a thick orange wire, thick black/red wire, thin tan (or brown) wire and a green/white wire.
With the key on, ground the green/white wire. If the relay clicks, it works. But if the fan doesn't come on, pull the relay and short the thick orange and black/red wires. If the fan still doesn't come on, it's either the fan motor or the wiring. Then the trusty DMM would be needed (you can measure amps from the thick orange wire to the thick black/red wire - use the 20A setting!)

Of course, a simple check would be to swap the relays and see if the problem switches sides.

To answer your last question, though, the secondary relay is actuated either by the A/C or the HI-TEMP OVERHEAT switch in the passenger head (set to around 245 degrees).

Btw, you're asking "why all of a sudden?". Of course the hot weather doesn't help and A/C neither. But have you checked your radiator and A/C condenser fins lately? If they are blocked/bent, that'd hinder the cooling performance of your car and the A/C will just push the heat over the top.

Hope this helps.
Lou

P.S.: Wiring diagram here: http://www.austinthirdgen.org/mkportal/mod...gine_wiring.gif


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Stephen
post May 29 2008, 11:57 PM
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Thanks Lou, but remember...I have a 87 FSM for reference, not a generic version. 8)

Motors out....Both relays are right by each other. Just had to pull the air filter housing out to reach them. Primary fan worked on both relays, Secondary wouldn't come on with either, with the AC turned on.

Only thing I didn't do was jump 12v directly from the battery to the fan. I'm positive it wouldn't work.

$25 fan motor, here I come! And it has to be finished TOMORROW! No 24hr Autozones out here in BFE..... weep.gif


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Randy
post May 30 2008, 08:42 AM
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Have you test driven it since you filled the coolant? it sould still mantain proper operating temp with only one fan and a/c off right?? Granted its hot now and you probly do want the a/c but, that aside It should not overheat while driving t high speed with the loss of one fan. Hopefully thats all the problem was just low coolant, and nothing more serious. You could allways replace the thermostat too while you are at it. its the cheepest thing you can do and only takes a few minutes, and less than 10 bucks. On my old 83 trans am, I was having overheating issues. I had a 1977 350 built up to a 383 in it with a strait drive fan bolted to the pully, no clutch onit. how ever fast the pully was turning thats how fast the fan was turning. it pulled ALOT of air with that massive fan shroud it had on the rad, car was still trying to over heat on me. it would run normal for a while at 200 or so, then start to slowly warm up. i replaced the stat, witch was only 3 months old. it worked perfectly. my best gess was the sprig was going bad and it was starting to stick and not open properly. Like yours my upper radiator hose felt hot as if it was working properly but that in the end turnd out to be my issue. Hope you are able to figure it out.

-Randy-


--------------------
--1991 Camaro RS Convertible-- (LO3 - V8 - TBI) 5.0 Liter - Borg-Warner T5 Manual - Performance Chip--
--Current Project- Lighter Fluid and a Match... yep that will fix it!--



Previous 3rd gen's:

-1982 Camaro (LQ9 - L4 - TBI) - 2.4 Liter -- 4 speed Manual -- Sold

-1983 Recaro Trans Am T-Top (LG4 - V8 - 4bbl) 5.0 Liter -- (MM4) 4 speed Manual -- Sold
Swaped in 383 Stroker with Holly 4bbl. T5 Borg-Warner Trans.

-1988 Camaro (LB8 - V6 - MPI) 2.8 Liter -- 4 Speed Automatic with O.D. -- Sold

-1989 Pontiac Firebird (LB8 - V6 - MPFI) 2.8 Liter 700R4 Auto -- Sold
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Stephen
post May 30 2008, 08:58 AM
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I do want a lower thermostat, but with TPI, it isn't a simple thing to do. It's practically under the throttle body.

Yes, 1 fan SHOULD keep it cool. Maybe it would stay cool for the trip tomorrow with only 1 fan? But I don't wanna find out it won't, the hard way!


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BudlyUSA
post May 30 2008, 09:28 AM
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QUOTE(Cranford @ May 29 2008, 07:02 PM) *
Yeah, and that is my biggest suspect, but I dunno which relay it is.....

Odd though. I kept adding water & antifreeze today, waiting, adding more, waiting....Either I didn't add enough at Lou's, or my engine is thirsty.

Exhaust has ZERO white smoke & the exhaust tips are DRY. ZERO moisture. I see no collapsed hose top or bottom.

Radiator cap back on, hood closed, idling for 10 min +. she leveled out at 220.

Hopefully I was jut LOW on water, even though I never see water puddling under the car anywhere. Head gasket would be my worst nightmare!

If the engine is drinking the water (head gasket), there is zero visible moisture at the tip.


You could have had an air locked water system.
Sometimes, when filling coolant back up, there develops an air pocket that can get 'stuck'.
It's kinda old school but I have seen it several times over the years.
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BudlyUSA
post May 30 2008, 09:30 AM
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QUOTE(BudlyUSA @ May 30 2008, 10:28 AM) *
You could have had an air locked water system.
Sometimes, when filling coolant back up, there develops an air pocket that can get 'stuck'.
It's kinda old school but I have seen it several times over the years.



Also, if you're gunna replace the thermo, get a Failsafe one that fails open.

:-)
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Stephen
post May 30 2008, 09:37 AM
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That or the cold water was cold enough the close the thermostat, or at least partially close it, enough to make me THINK it was full & I just stopped refilling it too soon.

Damn parts store out here in BFE! They only carry theAC Delco motor ($47!), & they can't get it here until 3 or 4 this afternoon! So, I can't try to put it in until tonight, which leaves me no time for more fixes if it turns out not to be the problem (which I'm sure it is) but also means I have to get it done TONIGHT & not all all day to mess with it!

WHY oh WHY did I sell the extra dual fan setup I had! Woulda been a free motor!


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BudlyUSA
post May 30 2008, 09:43 AM
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QUOTE(Cranford @ May 30 2008, 10:37 AM) *
That or the cold water was cold enough the close the thermostat, or at least partially close it, enough to make me THINK it was full & I just stopped refilling it too soon.

Damn parts store out here in BFE! They only carry theAC Delco motor ($47!), & they can't get it here until 3 or 4 this afternoon! So, I can't try to put it in until tonight, which leaves me no time for more fixes if it turns out not to be the problem (which I'm sure it is) but also means I have to get it done TONIGHT & not all all day to mess with it!

WHY oh WHY did I sell the extra dual fan setup I had! Woulda been a free motor!


Why oh Why were you filling through the thermo. You'd have to use 190+ water to get it past.
scratchchin.gif
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Stephen
post May 30 2008, 09:50 AM
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I wasn't filling through the thermostat. Can exactly run a motor that way. crazy.gif

I was filling through the radiator cap. But if the water was cool enough after it went through the engine and got to the thermostat, chances are it wouldn't go from 60 degrees to 200 in one trip through the engine, it woulda still been cool enough to at least partly close the thermostat.


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BudlyUSA
post May 30 2008, 09:55 AM
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QUOTE(Cranford @ May 30 2008, 10:50 AM) *
I wasn't filling through the thermostat. Can exactly run a motor that way. crazy.gif

I was filling through the radiator cap. But if the water was cool enough after it went through the engine and got to the thermostat, chances are it wouldn't go from 60 degrees to 200 in one trip through the engine, it woulda still been cool enough to at least partly close the thermostat.


I didn't mean to rip on ya, I just always tried to fill my engines from the inlet instead of the radiator.
I take out the thermo and fill through the upper rad hose biggrin.gif
Like I said, I've had trouble with air pockets and this was the best way I learned to avoid them.

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